They've found Richard III!

[Minty]

Probably not that big a deal to anyone outside of the UK, but to anyone with any knowledge of history or Shakespeare, this is one of the most controversial figures of popular culture that's finally been unearthed.

To give you a quick summary, Richard III was the last Plantagenet monarch of England, who usurped the throne from his brother's 12 year old son Edward V after both of Edward IV's sons was declared illegitimate. Richard was crowned king instead with undue haste & one month later both boys ("The Princes in The Tower") vanished from public view & were never heard of again.

It's one of the major mysteries of British history, what happened to the princes (they were likely both murdered, but there is some doubt) and who was responsible, one of the most debated "whodunnit"s ever. The popular legend is that Richard III murdered them, but he could equally have been framed up for it by others wishing to discredit him & seize the throne for themselves.

I'm assuming that his body will now be given a proper burial in Westminster Abbey, but there could be a bidding war for the bones & all the lovely tourists they'll bring.

[bobert26]

Awesome. I'd heard of the Princes in the Tower but I didn't know that the whereabouts of Richard III's remains were unknown.

[Minty]

The bidding war for the bones has started, with Leicester Cathedral wanting him.

Was a bit surprised that Queenie Poos has already said the Royal Family don't want him in Windsor or in Westminster Abbey (even though his wife Anne Neville is buried in the latter), since Prince William will be (by a bizarre quirk of fate) the first direct line descendant of Richard III to come to the throne.

York Minster has the strongest claim, since Richard III built a chantry chapel there - which is what rich nobs did back then at the spot they wanted planted in.

Very disappointed in the BBC not showing Sir Laurence Olivier ("dear, dear Larry!")'s film version of Richard III over the weekend, not like them to miss out on a quick topical cash in. They at least could have shown again Peter Sellers doing the Beatles's "A Hard Day's Night" in the style of Richard III. It's a bit dated, but so is Shakespeare for that matter.

[Minty]

It was confirmed at midnight, but the press conference has now been and gone confirming what we've known for some time.




Have to say he looks nothing like his portraits!




Check the curvature the poor guy had his spine in the press conference. How he ever managed to take part in so many battles & survive is pretty remarkable.

They have confirmed that he was killed by a halberd. The chronicler Jean Molinet said centuries ago it was Welsh troops that did it & that a halberd had struck the fatal blow. As the Welsh were armed with pole-axes (similar but not the same), it does add credence to the claim that their leader Rhys ap Thomas (one of Richard's turncoats) did the deed, perhaps with a halberd given to him from Henry Tudor, whose soldiers were armed with weaponry acquired while in exile in France. The angle of the blow indicates one from an attacker above the victim (going for the head, only to end up clipping the base of the skull but enough to slice right through it & probably part beheading him in the process).

Does this mean Thomas was on a horse at the time? It would explain Henry Tudor's swift knighting of him afterwards on the battlefield, since only knights were supposed to ride horses in an actual battle at that time.

Whatever, this is bloody fascinating stuff.

[Caspin]

Crumbs, yes, look at his poor spine!

There was some kind of drama on TV this weekend about Richard III and the Princes in the Tower.

I like it when the remains have nice clear wounds that tell you what happened. Have you been to the viking museum in York? At the exit they have lots of skeletons with different wounds from different weapons. It's really interesting. Also they have lots of examples of how various diseases, genetic conditions, battles and living through arduous lives affected the skeletons.

Later... oh there is a show coming on TV about the skeleton! I shall get a cake and watch it.

And later still... Am going to have to stop watching the programme. Too much fruitloopery and not enough facts for my liking!

[Caspin]

I really wanted to watch that programme last night. I was wanting to hear about the science primarily (how they are sure it is him due to genetic testing and other evidence) but also I was interested in the archaeology and the history. I didn't do history at school but I like it and would like to know more. Instead what do I get? A crackers woman going on about how she found the remains because when she was in a car park she had a "feeling" Richard was there and someone saw the letter R painted on the ground.

Really? There was an R painted on the ground in a car park? Unless the R was followed by "ICHARD III IS HERE" that leaves me cold. Also if she had wandered randomly into the car park and had her "feeling" then that might be significant. But surely she was actually prompted to go digging there because of historical references to the friary and documents mentioning that he might have been buried there. I tried to hang on for the science but it was too unbearable. I shall wait patiently for New Scientist to write up about it instead. Or Minty can give us a synopsis as he seems to be following it well.

:mw_yes:

[Ollie]

It's always nice to wake up in the morning and then see a skeleton on TV.

[Minty]

(05-02-2013 09:20 PM)Caspin Wrote:  I really wanted to watch that programme last night. I was wanting to hear about the science primarily (how they are sure it is him due to genetic testing and other evidence) but also I was interested in the archaeology and the history. I didn't do history at school but I like it and would like to know more. Instead what do I get? A crackers woman going on about how she found the remains because when she was in a car park she had a "feeling" Richard was there and someone saw the letter R painted on the ground.

Really? There was an R painted on the ground in a car park? Unless the R was followed by "ICHARD III IS HERE" that leaves me cold. Also if she had wandered randomly into the car park and had her "feeling" then that might be significant. But surely she was actually prompted to go digging there because of historical references to the friary and documents mentioning that he might have been buried there. I tried to hang on for the science but it was too unbearable. I shall wait patiently for New Scientist to write up about it instead. Or Minty can give us a synopsis as he seems to be following it well.

:mw_yes:

The whole Richard III under the R in the Social Services car park was a long running local gag (like the "Robin Hood was buried in the wardrobe" one) in Leicester long before Phillipa Langley had her "feelings". There was also maps showing where Greyfriars had been & anyone could have made a guess from that where the high alter would have been where Richard had purportedly been buried on the quiet. That it turned out to be true was brilliant though.

The Richard III Society & sadly many Richardians are nutters. Some of their stuff is good, but most of them have refused to accept that anything short of Richard III being Rambo III as Tudor propaganda. That was no doubt one of the reasons why Phillipa Langley burst into tears when they uncovered his spine - at a stroke their Tudor propaganda line was in tatters. It doesn't mean all the black press stuff about him was lies (the withered arm has now been disproven), but it shows not all of it can be all dismissed.

Watching the documentary again, it seemed from the off that the University knew from the start they'd found Richard by sheer dumb luck on day one. Slap bang where the Greyfriars main altar had been (therefore someone important), severe curvature of the spine, big chunk out of the back of the skull that looked like a pole axe had cleaved it, even someone with very basic historical knowledge would have sussed it.

The problem they had was the Ricardians are such media whores they put the academics into a position with the media where if they had to backtrack they'd be finished. Hugh Trevor Roper was one of the world's most eminent historians, but his career was in tatters when he allowed himself into being railroaded into authenticating the Hitler Diaries, only for them to be proven laughable fakes a fortnight later.

This is one of the reasons why there was a certain amount of tension between the Ricardians in the programme and the archaeological team (especially Dr Jo Appleby - the one with the glasses). Leicester University's Archeological and History department's futures (already struggling for funding like all history departments do) came to be gambled on this thanks to the Richardians & the media (the twist being if it wasn't for the Ricardians they'd never had got the money or permission to do it).

Lucky for them it appears Greyfriars not only gave them the biggest British archeological find since the Mary Rose, but Greyfriars is proving a mass treasure trove of medieval and Roman loot. Almost overnight, Leicester Uni has become a major player in archeology and history, with all the sponsorship coming their way that will entail.

The skeleton and rebuild of how he looked in real life perhaps means a lot of events in his life fall into place. He died at Bosworth from ordering & leading a foolhardy charge at Henry Tudor when it was clear the Stanley's had backstabbed him & the only hope of now winning was if he could kill Henry & leave the Lancastrians leaderless. Many accounts said that he was good on a horse & with a sword to the surprise of many. Now we know he looked a bit of a girly in features and build, living in the times he did, it's clear he probably constantly felt he'd a point to prove, especially living in the shadow of his Jack The Lad brother Edward IV. As Edward II, Richard II and John all discovered, foppish medieval nobles tend to lead unhappy lives, even if they are king.

Whether he murdered his nephews, now that's a whole different topic altogether & this post is long enough!

[Caspin]

I tried reading your post, Minty, on my phone on the way home. I cannot tell you how looooooooooooooooong the screen became on my poor little non-smart phone, lol! You know heaps about history. They should have got you to present the programme!

I really felt for the archaeologists when crazy lady produced that flag and wanted to wrap it round the box of bones that had only just been dug up and not properly identified. Then the box just got shoved in the back of the van and looked preposterous. In fact it was at that point that I stopped watching.

I'm still waiting to read a proper write up on the genetics testing. Then I shall be happy.

[Minty]

I was very impressed by those who did the testing of the bones. Before they even got down to the DNA results, they pointed out how the bones phosphorus levels were far too high for someone living inland in that era. That at once pointed to major nobility, as the only ones living away from sea areas to enjoy regular diets of fish (the reason for the high phosphorus levels) & discounted it being one of the Greyfriars monks. It was at that point they appeared to be convinced it was Richard before they'd even got the DNA tests back.

Westminster Abbey's having kittens now because one of their long standing excuses for not allowing tests on the bones of the Princes in the Tower (much disputed, being the third set found attributed to the boys) was having to disturb another Plantagenet's grave to get the DNA to prove it. They're also playing awkward because like York Minster they wanted Richard III's bones, despite the long tradition that remains discovered by archeologists are interred in the nearest available church. Another story however is they are frightened of it setting a precedent. There's a number of other disputed burials there (for instance, Richard II). If a number of their skeletal tourist attractions are defrauded, they could lose tourists.

This story could keep on running. Certainly I hope it does, far more interesting than hearing about who David Cameron's falling out with this week!